Overnight Flights

[davidc]

I've been spending the last week or so trying to get Air France to allow me to use my CPAP machine on a 13.5 hr overnight flight.... without much joy.

Air France policy seems to be that you can only use battery operated CPAP machine on their flight UNLESS you are brought on to the plane on a stretcher (and pay for 8 seats!) in which case you are allowed to plug the CPAP machine into the power socket at your seat.

This seems to me to be complete madness. I could understand them saying that they can't guarantee the power supply at your seat to be working, but to specifically ban you from using the power supply if you walk on to the plane seems a step too far.

I was at the point of giving up trying to get a more sensible answer out of Air France when yesterday I got an email from them stating I wasn't even allowed to transport the CPAP machine! Needless to say I hit the roof.

After a number of phone calls they now tell me I can get on the plane with the machine but I am not allowed to use it... although I am still awaiting the email confirmation of that.

This means the start of my holiday isn't going to be great (or indeed my return), but the passengers around me aren't going to be happy either.

Has anyone managed to get Air France to see sense? If so, what tactic did you employ? It seems you can't talk to the team that makes the decision - not customer facing apparently... a rather convienent excuse.

Once I get back from my holiday I'm going to take this matter further with Air France, as I believe the policy they have in place is totally inappropriate. However I won't be travelling with Air France or KLM going forward, as they have treated me with nothing but contempt from start to finish... one of the telephone operators even agreed that they don't care about my health!

So more importantly which airlines have a more sensible policy in place?

thanks and regards,
David

[shuckie]

Hi davidc

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a negative experience with this airline. How long is it until your holiday? If you have enough time before your departure date would it be worth trying to generate some negative publicity by writing to your MP & local/national newspaper and/or regional news channel, or alternatively tell someone like BBC's Watchdog program (http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/)? If it's just the airline's "customer service" department that you've dealt with so far is it worth writing to their head office or similar instead?

Whoever you go to it is worth emphasizing what a serious condition sleep apnoea is and the potential effect it could have on you, not to mention how unhappy the other passengers may be if your snoring keeps everyone else awake!

Are you a member of the Sleep Apnoea Trust Association? If so it might be worth you contacting them and asking if they or another organisation could explain on your behalf the importance of being able to use your CPAP machine on the flight.

As a last resort I suppose you could get a letter from your GP/consultant explaining that the CPAP is vital medical equipment which you must carry and use whilst sleeping. Keep the letter with you to show security and the cabin crew if necessary, plug the CPAP in should you find yourself close enough to a working socket (or use an extension cable if required), and argue your case with the cabin crew if necessary!

Those are just my thoughts anyway. I hope it won't come to that, so please keep us posted regarding any developments.


shuckie

[davidc]

shuckie,

Alas my flight is this week, hence picking up the issue when I get back.
I certainly agree with all of the avenues of persausion you suggest though.
I'm going to try a few more times to see if I can resolve the issue with the company before my flight, but I don't think it will amount to much.

I already have a letter from the hospital consultant stating the need for CPAP use and plan to use it on the plane to see if the cabin crew are more sensible than the team in Paris. If I were cabin crew I wouldn't be keen to overrule a consultants recommendation!

When I started the discussion about sleep apnoea with the customer facing team then tried to suggest I would be denied boarding on the basis that I wasn't fit to travel... so I won't push that too hard until I come back!

I'd picked a class of travel that would ensure a plug socket, so if the cabin crew are sensible then I (and the rest of the cabin) should get a good nights sleep... If they don't allow me to use it, I plan to ask all the passengers around me to complain to the cabin crew that I'm disturbing their sleep and hopefully that will cause them to change their mind :-)

The biggest problem with Air France is that you can't talk to the people making the decisions. No matter how many times you ask via customer suport why this is their policy, you get nowhere... policy is policy apprently and can't be challenged... at least not on the phone. The only way I can challenge the decision is by writing directly to the team in Paris... so that won't be resolved by the time I get on the plane... and only deals with an individual case and not the policy itself. What I want is for Air France to change their policy.

When I get back I plan to ask all the airlines what their policy is on CPAP usage and if a campaign is required, then so be it.

regards,
David

[Tigers Fan]

You nearly say it all, Shuckie

Hi davidc

Shuckie uses phrases such as "emphasizing what a serious condition sleep apnoea is" and "CPAP is vital medical equipment". Think then, how an airline might react. Do you suppose they would rather have your few hundred quid and the risks associated with a passenger who needs vital equipment because he suffers from a serious condition or an empty seat and no risk of diversions, emergency landings de dah?

The only thing Air France are not actually saying to you is, "We don't want you as a standard passenger and the risks for us that travel with you. We'll accept you as a standard passenger provided you are healthy enough not to need any special equipment." (or come as an eight seat job).

I think they care very much about your health - and don't want it on their flight! They don't want to be lumbered with a duty of care.

It's business, my boy!

Thirteen and a half hours is going to give you jet lag. My sugestion is that you prepare for the flight by shifting your sleep pattern toward synch with your destination and get as much sleep as you can before the flight.

Don't get me wrong! I think you have right on your side and in an ideal world you would have your way. However, in the world in which we live, the way forward is to get around the restrictons of commercial interests as best we can, neither getting a beating nor spoiling our holiday with the fight.

It sucks when we need it to blow!

TF

[Richard]

Long-Haul Flights

Hi Davidc,

You might like to look at this:

This is an extract taken from the Department for Transport's Code of Practice in respect of airline passengers with disabilities. For the purpose of taking a flight on board a commercial aircraft you need to think of yourself as 'disabled', and the CPAP machine is an essential piece of medical equipment. A disabled passenger, for example one needing a wheelchair and a walking-frame, can take those on board the aircraft without charge. Provided you have a note describing what the CPAP is to be used for, Air France are obliged to carry it without charge.

7.28 The Department for Transport's Transport Security and Contingencies Directorate (TRANSEC) has produced guidance on the carriage of essential medicines, essential medical equipment and other essential liquids/materials (including baby food and baby-care items). However, essential medicines for the period of the trip may be permitted in cabin baggage but will be subject to authentication. Passengers must have obtained the prior agreement of the airline with which they are travelling and their departure airport. Passengers must also bring with them supporting documentation from a relevant qualified medical professional.

7.29 Passengers are permitted to carry through airport security checkpoints medical equipment essential for use during the period of their trip (such as syringes). As with medicines, this should be accompanied by supporting documentation from a relevant qualified medical professional.

If you contact the Customer Services Dept. at Air France in London, explain that you have a health issue, how you are disabled and need your machine on the flight, etc. etc. and make a point of quoting the regulations from the Department for Transport (This is the law, you know).

Let me know what happens.

Richard

[James @ Intus]

According to the ARTP, which is a leading body in the UK when it comes to sleep disorders like OSA, people with 'just OSA' are always fit to fly and this appears to be generally accepted. The disorder in itself doesn't prohibit flying. It's totally safe. It's just a matter of comfort, for the CPAP user as well as the other travellers. It's in the airline's best interests to accommodate this.

Tom has actually spent the last week combing through many airline's official policies to write up a blog post on this so I'll leave it to him to comment here with his findings and a few suggestions on how to make your trip as comfortable as possible, even when you can't rely on the airline's cooperation.

[Tigers Fan]

But let's not go down the disabled road!

There is no way in this world that I can be classed as diabled! I use CPAP, sleep well and am as fit as a fiddle (for a raddled old has been)! Apart from that, I don't want to be classed as disabled!

Now - I understand that you are angry and p'd off, davidc, but please us caution when you are airborne. Unless you have permission to plug in your CPAP or to use it on battery - and especially if you have had permission denied - you risk the wrath of the airline safety gods if you go ahead and use it.

Why can't you use a moble phone on a plane? Because it might transmit and interfere with the plane's instruments.

Now you come along with a weird looking machine and strap what looks like an oxygen mask to your face. Passengers around you may get upset. The crew are surely going to be worried and want to err on the side of safety of the aircraft. They will probably have been warned about you and reminded of company policy. I suspect you'd be opening yourself to unwanted consequences. Remember that eveyone is already twitchy about terrorists.

Airplane safety is paramount. Perceived threats will be dealt with summarily.

Your choice and I'm very interested to know what choice you make and the outcome of it. I urge you to be compliant with the airline and to fight your battles - and ours - when you get back.

You know and I know and we all know that you know that you can do with one night of poor sleep. I've flown hundreds of thousands of miles and hardly slept a wink - before and after OSA diagnosis - because I'm too long even for 1st Class seats. The jet lag is the worst part as it takes several days to overcome. You can make up for poor sleep in one good kip!

It is a worthy cause you are persuing - but holding the moral highground never stopped anyone being arrrested

TF

[Richard]

Flying with CPAP

Airlines are at pains to point out that absolutely anybody can fly, even disabled; the only restrictions are that you and whatever life-support equipment you need can negotiate the doors of the aircraft and you have someone accompanying you who can take care of your needs.

Cabin-staff are not nurses, however.

People who would never dream of flying: quadraplegics, kidney-dialysis patients, people needing O2 24/7 etc., can successfully fly. But you need to check the airline has a pretty comprehensive support facility in place and a sympathetic attitude to the requirements of the disabled passenger. So that everything is in place before you fly.

In this respect, BA and Virgin Atlantic come out top. Ryanair and Easyjet don't want to know, and as for the rest, well they may be well-intentioned, but there's a high degree of ignorance that leads one to believe they really don't have any concept of what you the customer are trying to tell them.

I have a picture in my mind of an oxygen-dependent passenger (like me) waiting at the baggage carousel at Alicante or Palma for a couple of empty oxygen-cylinders, because they had to travel in the hold and for that reason all the O2 was let out before the plane took off. Madness.

Now cruising, that's different. . . . .

Richard

[Tigers Fan]

Airline madness

I love madness stories!

I once tried to air freight some little CO2 cylinders. They were for the inflatable life vests newly required for a ship's man overboard boat cew. I could not get a single airline to touch them - fully tested and certificated little pressure vessels full of a tiny amount of an inoccuous gas (at those quantities). No way, Jose! not on my aircraft.

Even when I pointed out that under the backside of every passenger on every plane there resided a little CO2 cylinder exactly like mine, to be used for exactly the same purpose as mine (inflating life vests rather than rescuing men overboard!) not a single airline would touch them.

Illogical! said I. Not a bit of it, said the airlines - the passenger cabin is pressurised and the cargo hold isn't. So you are telling me that if the cabin de-pressurises and the plane crashes into the sea, the life vests are no good because the CO2 cylinders will have exploded?

And so back to airline policies ........

TF

[Richard]

Flying with CPAP

The next time you're on your holiday flight to the sun and that attractive young stewardess is going through the safety routine before you take-off, about not inflating your life-belt before leaving the aircraft, listen carefully as you ought.

When she comes to the bit about 'lowering the oxygen-masks from above your head', you can bet your life you won't hear her say: 'But there is only enough oxygen for 10 minutes' But that's all there is; better than none at all, I suppose.

And as you look around you, in mid-flight, you will see most of your fellow passengers fast asleep. Not through exhaustion particularly, but carbon-monoxide residue from the aircraft's engines filters through the bodywork; and we all know what that does.

Richard

[davidc]

Tigers Fan - don't worry, I'm not going to do anything stupid when I'm on the flight... I'm hoping the cabin crew will have been reminded of the policy as I can then have a sensible and polite conversation with them about it. If I can't use it then I think it is only fair to tell the people around me that if I am disturbing them (a) I don't mind them complaining to the cabin crew and (b) they can give me a nudge because I ain't sleeping either.

I won't be flying Air France again, but when I get back I will try and convince them that the policy they have in place is wrong.

As Richard mentions, British Airways has a much more enlightened view... this is what they have to say on their website:

CPAP machine

Medical clearance is not required for the carriage or use of CPAP machines (used in the treatment of sleep apnoea) as fitness to travel will not be in doubt.
CPAP machines can be plugged into a laptop power-point, where available, with a suitable adaptor.
Maximum power output from the laptop points is 75 Watts and, if your equipment draws more than this, the outlet will be automatically deactivated.
We cannot guarantee that any of the laptop points will be serviceable. If you intend to use one in flight, we recommend that you use a dry-cell battery-operated device.

This is very much in line with the advice given by the CAA which can be found here: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...=924&faqid=930

Ryanair and Easyjet allow you to take a CPAP machines on board, but don't allow you to use them... but given they only do shorthaul routes this shouldn't be required anyway.

Anyway, thanks for all the comments... I'm going to enjoy my holiday regardless of how Air France treat me and I hope to change their views on the matter when I return.

regards,
David

[acebass]

And as you look around you, in mid-flight, you will see most of your fellow passengers fast asleep. Not through exhaustion particularly, but carbon-monoxide residue from the aircraft's engines filters through the bodywork; and we all know what that does.

And just to put you off flying for good!!!

[Richard]

Flying with CPAP

I meant to point out that cabin-pressure in an aircraft at altitude results in a lower level of ambient oxygen and a higher level of CO2. Added to that is the CO filtering its way into the cabin as exhaust gases from the engines, and you need to ask yourself why on earth would you want to be connected to a CPAP machine on an aircraft?

Kamikazi pilots are one thing - but Kamikazi passengers?

Why not go by boat?

[James @ Intus]

Is that how passenger get drunk more easily too? Less O2, more CO2?

By the way David, you can consider an MAD like SomnoFit as an in-flight CPAP alternative. (That's what we supply many CPAP users for this very purpose. There are plenty of other brands too, including over the counter at Boots but a lot of them aren't great to be honest.) It may not cover your apnoea's entirely, but it's a great deal better than nothing.

[Tigers Fan]

Depends

1st Class and Club, forward of the engines and free booze, serious O2/CO2 effects.

They just drink too much in Cattle Class.